Definitions

Kemonomimi

A kemonomimi is a human character with any of the following:

- Animal ears
- A tail
- (Less commonly, sometimes a disqualifier) a snout or whiskers

Transformations / Feralization

Transformation in this context refers to human characters receiving attributes from the monster they are paired with, while still remaining visibly or mostly human. Full anthros are obviously out, but sometimes it can take the form of kemonomimi-like or more subtle features.

Questions

1. Should we allow female kemonomimis to pass as "human girl" characters?
2. Should we deal with less common attributes like snouts or whiskers differently?
3. Should we allow some level of transformation/feralization content?

anonymous said:

Definitions

Kemonomimi

A kemonomimi is a human character with any of the following:

- Animal ears
- A tail
- (Less commonly, sometimes a disqualifier) a snout or whiskers

Transformations / Feralization

Transformation in this context refers to human characters receiving attributes from the monster they are paired with, while still remaining visibly or mostly human. Full anthros are obviously out, but sometimes it can take the form of kemonomimi-like or more subtle features.

Questions

1. Should we allow female kemonomimis to pass as "human girl" characters?
2. Should we deal with less common attributes like snouts or whiskers differently?
3. Should we allow some level of transformation/feralization content?

Handful of thoughts
Across the board restrictions on kemonomimi seems dramatic; preserving the identity of the booru as being primarily for human female x feral male is important, otherwise why bother even making it, but ejecting otherwise good art because some ears were drawn one way instead of another seems kinda pointless, too. Making the line blurry instead of a harsh all or nothing approach will probably make for complexities eventually, but, as blurry as the line between kemono and anthro can be at its nearest comparisons, the overall content focus of the board SHOULD reel that line further in than things get really messy. Maybe. The safe answer is just no, but I'd rather a little risk for the promise of more good art.

Transformation is a whole extra can of worms. For the most part, I'd say it somewhat inherently doesn't really belong here, since Transformation is going to, on some level, make things more feral x feral or human x human than would otherwise be a good fit, at which point, you can just use another site. If the point of yume is women with their monster husbands, then content where that monster husband is just a human, or that woman is just a monster is undermining the whole point. Minor elements of transformation I'd otherwise consider similarly to kemonomimi. If it's good art, it doesn't REALLY matter if someone grows a tail or some ears in the middle of it. That said, there's some kind of fuzzy line between a pokemon OC and an implied transformation that's probably open for negotiation between people with more nuanced takes on the kink than me.

All that said, niether of these are really my kinks, or things that repulse me, so I don't have any other layers of personal attachment to it one way or the other. Just figure I can kick some cheap thoughts out for other people to bounce off of.

I kind of feel like much of kemonomimi could easily pass as cosplay, and I think splitting hairs about features is probably a bit much, but I might take snouts or whiskers as warning signs if nothing else. I think kemonomimi should be a mandatory tag, not sure if it should be default blacklisted, but I doubt there's much harm in allowing it because the line to full anthros is usually very clear.

As for transformations, I think similarly that "minor monster / mostly human" should keep the booru focused. It's a relatively fringe thing in my experience, and with pokemon it's mostly just cosplay with occasional kemonomimi features.

That said, neither are things I care much about personally either.

anonymous said:
Kemonomimi

For context this discussion arose after I approved these 2 posts. I didn't actually see the girls were kemonomimi until >>>/vp/56866238 pointed them out.

post #161 post #162

post #161: https://www.deviantart.com/raikou-k-9/art/How-many-things-can-I-cross-over-with-pokemon-489955452
post #162: https://www.deviantart.com/illusionsylveon/art/Game-Buddy-961128912

In post #161 the girl is Melia Antiqua from Xenoblade Chronicles who is part of the High Entia race who all have distinctive feathered wings, like angels, on their heads, These wings are similar in style to the bat wings on the succubus race's characters in Darkstalkers such as Morrigan.

The girl in post #162 simply has Vaporeon fins replacing her ears. They don't seem related to her Suicune husbando.
 

These are my thoughts on the questions. I'm not really opinionated so I'm more interested on what everyone else thinks.

1. My guess is that kemonomimi (monster girl) x monster or other humanoid x monster pairings aren't particularly common. For most things I prefer being relaxed and allowing users to post lots of content, but the monster x (human) yume identity is the point of attraction for this place so I can see why we should define our positions on whether to allow it.
2. While she might not be covered in fur it seems like this would put the yume between levels 1 and 2 on the kemono staircase. Level 2 is good for husbandos but not typical yumes. Level 1 hasn't been discussed before now for monsters or yumes. On the one hand there isn't much difference between a human girl and a monster boy, such as Inuyasha. On the other hand do yumes want a place for monster boys too even if terato is the focus?
3. Since the leaked Gamefreak Typhlosion story includes the yume transforming into her husband's species and the pokeyume thread incorporated that theme into the greentext story I think we should allow this. However I wonder how yumes would feel if it has more of a Pokemon Mystery Dungeon tone. That might be a bit far. I'm also not sure if feralization for yumes is different to transforamtion.
 

Hopefully that fleshes out discussion abit. I haven't made up my mind about anything so I'm eager to read what you have to say!

mod related:
well ive seen my fair share of anime and kemono art so heres a concern... i mean just look at this. imagine being a mod in this situation.

https://files.catbox.moe/3iey6h.png

-if we give these the green light then you are mainly basing the fact if a picture is allowed or not on one feature and thats the nose.
(so far the kemonomimis uploaded are by westerners who draw bigger noses but what about anime art by asian artists in the future?)
-(3) anime dot noses can already kinda look like anime cat noses so sometimes it would just look like a female furry anyway and we obviously dont allow those to be in the place of the human girl.
-(2) what about pictures where she doesnt even have a nose?
-skin colored furries exist. (white/beige to dark brown is a wide range and these brown ranges fall into common animal colors) so its not like you can just base this on how they are colored.
you must decide based on the nose and if they have fur. asian artists like to draw "skin fur" so theres sometimes simply no fur looking part at all in these furry kemonos which will be fun.
-in many cases the human ears of the catgirl might be hidden (or not exist at all) because it looks strange to have 4 ears on them so thats another fun part here that will make filtering harder.

-personal opinion/kinda mod maybe:
the difference between whats a kemono and a catgirl can be so minor it will not only sometimes be hard to decide what picture is allowed but its kinda not making sense to me to allow the right but not the left picture here.
(which is why i added the "why" there.)
at that point you might as well just allow furry girls which obviously isnt the point of the booru as we know so those will obviously stay banned.
(and honestly.. my concern with this is we probably will allow them unintentionally because of how ambiguous this can be.)

somewhat of a solution to this would be a rule that she must have a visible human nose and to not allow ambiguous or missing noses i suppose. they still kinda look like furries though. welp.

other:
i already mentioned some in my post but my other thoughts again
-its technically against the human x monster rule. (my biggest problem with this.)
-i do not personally like them/i cant enjoy them because theyre monster x monster pictures technically but thats me and others might enjoy them.
-i do not consider them human girls even if these exist in some weird grey zone (as do e621 rules. like i mentioned these are allowed solo on there.)
-i would allow these already uploaded pictures to stay because they were uploaded before the rule discussion.
-i personally do not want this to be an encouraged thing people upload so at the very least id like to see this discouraged in the rules. (art is mentioned as a reason so the art could have a quality standard for example.)
-(eh. tails and whiskers and slit eyes really feel like too much to me for them to be on site as human girl stand ins in general..)

rules related
edit:wooops sorry that was an anon. wrong user but can happen when the topic is kinda split into 2 threads cause catboys are related to the other.
an anon already mentioned male ones arent suitable here but heres my thoughts anyway.
-this one ties in with the other topic but if we allow humans with permanent minor changes such as these then we will end up with catboy x catgirl pictures on the booru and thats just complete nonsense.

id just put a blanket ban on all these regular anime humans with tiny permanent changes such as fangs or ears or tails or what have you (but im harsh unlike wawanya.)
-because it can be complicated to decide approval on a submission. (unless we say she must have a visible human nose.)
-theyre not technically human when it comes to self inserts but they look way too much like it to be considered monsters.
-the male ones are not of interest to people who want to do it with actual monsters.
-male ones are available in a way greater quantity than actual monsters.
-male ones might draw in users we arent aiming for. (people who only like regular anime people instead of actual monsters.)

>2. Should we deal with less common attributes like snouts or whiskers differently?
snouts are 100% furry. theres absolutely no denying that. any girl with a snout is a no go because thats a furry for sure and people have noticed such a picture before because thats really not a human at all.
i mean thats not even in a grey zone when you ask people on whether thats furry or not.
(it was a mistake by the uploader.)

[i will add my thoughts on temporary transformation later.]

on one hand i dont want to be too harsh (which is why i havent touched those posts and can understand people who like them) but on the other this is kind of a difficult topic if we allow these because you could say its basically in opposition to the human x monster rule (which kinda really bothers me lel but im a specific person) and it can be hard to moderate unless we go for the visible nose rule for female ones if we allow those for self inserts that is.

edit: another thought i had today. if we allow these because of art then we could have another rule where human edits of these pictures make the original kemomimi upload obsolete and therefore able to be deleted.

welp. i guess those are my 2 cents on this for now. lets see what other users feel about the topic of kemonomimi.

dronedartdrain-tc said:
https://files.catbox.moe/3iey6h.png

This is a good reference but I was confused on what the difference was at first since it's trying to demonstrate this problem regarding how small differences can be. To make it really clear for everyone, from left to right this is how the small noses differ.
1. Triangle nose - meant to be animalistic
2. No nose - easy to see its absence visually but the loss of a key detail makes the character much more ambiguous
3. Dot nose - Minimalistic but it also is not clearly human or humanoid
4. Line nose - very small but meant to be human

I actually think enforcing human noses as a rule is quite a good idea. Both of the posts I approved appear human because of their noses.

We can better understand how this would affect other characters with more references. For example, look at Neco Arc from Melty Blood.
She's a kemonomimi with a tail and no nose. Ignoring the tail for a moment, she doesn't really look or act like yume material. She might be funny and likeable but I haven't seen any yumes insert as her. The tail definitely means she's too far from being human.

You're right the booru certainly should not allow catboy x catgirl. The boy isn't monstrous enough and the girl is too animalistic.
 

For more examples we can look at the characters from League of Legends. Here are some of the more popular ones sorted in how I think we'd classify them.

• Too inhuman: Ahri, the yordles, Soraka, Nami, Neeko, Kindred, Shyvana
• Human, but not very yume: Jinx, Riven, Nidalee (sometimes shipped with monsters but it doesn't come off as yume), Miss Fortune, Annie (I know she has the bear but she has that weird dark Alice In Wonderland theme), Akali, Ashe
• Human and yume: Sona, Lux

Maybe human characters that might not fit the theme of yume is better for another topic. The non-human ones should hopefully fit your expectations.
 

One think about Sona is that she's a ripoff of Hatsune Miku. I'm thinking Miku and the other vocaloid characters would be alright but sometimes they're depicted as androids. This might also need another thread like the distorted and deformed human-like monsters.
 

Another series that's good to inform what's allowed is Legend of Zelda. Much like how catboys x catgirls don't fit the booru, hylians or elves also don't really belong. So definitely no Link x Zelda.
However Zelda characters do have several transformations. Ganondorf would probably be allowable if the focus was on him transforming into Ganon. Link can also transform into a rabbit and a wolf.
There's also the question of whether we should allow hylian x monster for the zora and rito species or the above transformations. That would determine whether Zelda or Linkle x Sidon or Revali are ok. I'm not sure the gerudo such as Urbosa would fit here.
 

Looking back at post #162 you might have missed that the humanoid actually has a fish tail in the pic. I didn't notice it until I looked on that artist's DA for more detail about that character but it's a bit embarrassing I didn't see it.
It turns out that it's a male, is gay and is a gijinka, meaning he can transform into a Pokemon apparently. The face on the post made me think he was a girl and if that was true it looked like a cute pairing.
If we used Tag What You See rules like e6 we would probably tag him as ambiguous_gender and maybe only add a lore tag indicating he's male. However I agree that TWYS isn't good and that knowing this character is actually a gay man makes the post clash with the rest of the booru. I'll keep it for context until we finish discussing this topic.
 

This only leaves post #161. The wings raise a question of whether angels could count as yumes. And if we allowed angel wings should we allow bat wings too since they're only different material? Would we allow vampires under a transformation rule if they had a bat form?
For this post though I don't feel strongly either way about keeping it or not. I'd be comfortable to leave it under a grandfather rule too if we decided.
 

dronedartdrain-tc said:
id just put a blanket ban on all these regular anime humans with tiny permanent changes such as fangs or ears or tails or what have you (but im harsh unlike wawanya.)

I'm leaning toward agreeing that yumes with fangs might be a little too monstrous. The only exception I'd give would be moefangs since they're mostly stylistic.

just wanted to mention this is also a kemonomimi post so we got them all here.

post #160

this one does not have a tail.

wawanya said:

I'm leaning toward agreeing that yumes with fangs might be a little too monstrous. The only exception I'd give would be moefangs since they're mostly stylistic.

nothing wrong with regular human canine teeth (moefangs). i meant either exaggerated huge fangs or in the direction of anime human vampires with this whole
>ah hes a monster because he has some fangs he sucks blood with (but otherwise literally just looks like a regular anime person)
type of deal.

wawanya said:

The wings raise a question of whether angels could count as yumes.

warning unfiltered opinion:
just wanna say that this is kinda all the same. kemomimi... a fish tail... angels... demon ladies with giant demon wings and spaded tails...? horns?? humans with green or blue skin.
if youre gonna allow one of these then you could technically just allow them all.
(which is why this is such a can of worms i dont wanna allow. none of that is human and its hard to deal with.)
i mean a red vampire demon lady with horns and a spaded tail and yellow slit eyes and fangs counting as a human stand in... its getting a bit strange isnt it.
this is what nekomimis look like to me. ..mermaids? satyrs!? welp.. it just keeps going. where is the line.
are we gonna have like 10 threads discussing each one with rules for each little feature and case because oh a demon lady is ok.. but only if she doesnt have red skin because thats too much... but otherwise red skin is ok for humans.... wait a spaded tail and horns? well.... uh.
(starts calculating how many non human features are allowed on something thats supposed to be a human.)
i mean dont let me stop you guys from doing that but theres just way too many of these human with extra thing attached monsters out there and the discussion of whats still human enough will probably never end because each user feels different about where that border is for them. we can already see that happening with wawanyas opinion on fangs and how wawanya feels that crosses a line.

edit: oh and another thing. aliens. if you allow humans with unnatural skin tones+animal ears (antennae) you get aliens. call me crazy but i dont think the irkens from invader zim are human.

dronedartdrain-tc said:
warning unfiltered opinion:

Thanks for laying all of this out. I think it's good you wrote and posted all of this because it means both that we considered these details and discussed them in public giving everyone a chance to add their thoughts.
I know I've brought up some minor variations so it's good to see you have a clear idea on them and that they also don't fit the booru's theme. That helps us with ultimately creating guidance for this.
How do other users feel about adopting this more restrictive position? Like in forum #56 I think we can probably start drafting up a wiki page summarizing these guidelines while giving anyone else the chance to continue talking about this as that happens.

dronedartdrain-tc said:
just wanted to mention this is also a kemonomimi post so we got them all here.

post #160

post #160: https://www.deviantart.com/fieryunikitty/art/Me-bonding-with-Suicune-updated-1090056413

this one does not have a tail.

Oh right I missed this too. She does look quite yume but yes I see her ears now.

I think I carefully agree that singling out a certain aesthetic is probably a risk in regards to what variations to permit at all. Where I can see a case being made, in favor of default-blacklisting as opposed to banning outright, is that it's an aesthetic that is very common in overlapping material and the kind of thing I could imagine someone wear outside of a strict cosplaying context, whereas I think the same is very rare with demon horns or angel wings or body coloring or snouts.

I don't think the lack of a nose needs to be a disqualifier if snouts aren't permitted, if snout is the thing that to most people would speak "yeah, this is a furry/anthro" then I think the existence of one is really the only thing you need to look for regardless of whether some styles omit them. In general, I think ruling on what you can see still holds some merit and that it's a balance to strike rather than going strictly one way or another. I think this is even more true in regards to characters genders, though I agree that explicit statements about the character or other drawings by the author is sufficient for disqualification, just probably be a little careful with self-inserts and all the implications that can come up there.

Admittedly, since I don't spend a lot of time around furry communities, the association to furries is probably much weaker to me than to others. I did sort of post these deliberately to cause the discussion before feelings might be hurt one way or another, and I don't mind dropping them at all.

edit:ill black out some of my double thoughts cause i might be repeating myself there.

all im saying is what we shouldnt be asking is can yumes insert into this creature
but rather what do we 100% know all yumes prefer to insert into and the answer to that is always the same. its not monstergirls but human girls.

teratophilia women can self insert into arielle the mermaid or pikachu from mystery dungeon. they dont prefer to but they can as long as its female. if we go with this mindset then we start losing our focus really fast.

the problem is when the discussion extends beyond just kemomimis and you start opening up this entire pandora box of
>is this still human enough
because aside from needing to have people decide on whats too much.. theres also just no way we can expect users to keep track of all these rules related to that when they upload/already try to remember things like the on model tag.

are people really gonna do all this research and try to wrap their head around it.

i just dont see this as feasible when im already trying to get people to use the mandatory tags right now. if it would only stay at kemomimi.. but as we can see it doesnt stay at that topic
and we will keep building up niche rules related to all these monstergirls.
wew.

wawanya said:
Thanks for laying all of this out. I think it's good you wrote and posted all of this because it means both that we considered these details and discussed them in public giving everyone a chance to add their thoughts.
I know I've brought up some minor variations so it's good to see you have a clear idea on them and that they also don't fit the booru's theme. That helps us with ultimately creating guidance for this.
How do other users feel about adopting this more restrictive position? Like in forum #56 I think we can probably start drafting up a wiki page summarizing these guidelines while giving anyone else the chance to continue talking about this as that happens.

yeah of course people can keep adding their thoughts onto this topic while we maybe make some sort of basic draft for at least this point in time.

I think unnatural skin colors can be disallowed outright on its own, similarly to devil horns or angel wings, so I don't think there is a necessary slippery slope to them if have a clause regarding animal ears. The reason I empathize with kemonomimi is that for a lot of mons, disallowing them cuts off a large portion of the artwork available and could make it hard for some people to post much at all. I think it's important to try and balance the concern of a clear ruleset with some sense of the scale of the problem when choosing a solution (default blacklist or ban), and that some arbitration is hard to avoid with the theme and aims we've set up. Still, if you do feel that the line should go at kemonomimi it's not something I feel very strongly about, to me it reads like a type of fashion, but that's probably because I see very little of it in general.

In regards to mandatory tags, I don't think we can expect users to use them yet when, as far as I've seen, we don't have any mandatory tags yet! We'll probably need to give it some time and set up some proper posting and moderation guidelines before things settle in.

anonymous said:
I think unnatural skin colors can be disallowed outright on its own, similarly to devil horns or angel wings, so I don't think there is a necessary slippery slope to them if have a clause regarding animal ears. The reason I empathize with kemonomimi is that for a lot of mons, disallowing them cuts off a large portion of the artwork available and could make it hard for some people to post much at all. I think it's important to try and balance the concern of a clear ruleset with some sense of the scale of the problem when choosing a solution (default blacklist or ban), and that some arbitration is hard to avoid with the theme and aims we've set up. Still, if you do feel that the line should go at kemonomimi it's not something I feel very strongly about, to me it reads like a type of fashion, but that's probably because I see very little of it in general.

In regards to mandatory tags, I don't think we can expect users to use them yet when, as far as I've seen, we don't have any mandatory tags yet! We'll probably need to give it some time and set up some proper posting and moderation guidelines before things settle in.

>mandatory tags
i do think it will help. at least id like that. to be fair these are done but just not posted because we keep adding to it.

edit: also sigh. the initial conversation was about kemonomimi but then it was about every monster girl under the sun which was the real issue to me.

dronedartdrain-tc said:
all im saying is what we shouldnt be asking is can yumes insert into this creature
but rather what do we 100% know all yumes prefer to insert into and the answer to that is always the same. its not monstergirls but human girls.

teratophilia women can self insert into arielle the mermaid or pikachu from mystery dungeon. they dont prefer to but they can as long as its female. if we go with this mindset then we start losing our focus really fast.

I think this is the clearest position out of the whole discussion thus far. It simply lays out what's acceptable and explains why the booru focuses on that content. This looks good to implement for new and existing posts.

anonymous said:
The reason I empathize with kemonomimi is that for a lot of mons, disallowing them cuts off a large portion of the artwork available and could make it hard for some people to post much at all. I think it's important to try and balance the concern of a clear ruleset with some sense of the scale of the problem when choosing a solution (default blacklist or ban), and that some arbitration is hard to avoid with the theme and aims we've set up.

This makes sense too though. We should still settle on the 100% human yume rule but keep this concern in mind in case it becomes a problem later. Then we can always create a new thread to discuss whether to allow some kemonomimi as long as we blacklist it by default or something.

dronedartdrain-tc said:
edit: also sigh. the initial conversation was about kemonomimi but then it was about every monster girl under the sun which was the real issue to me.

That said even if we do discuss allowing kemonomimi in some form later I expect we won't let the exceptions and conditions get out of control like you're saying could happen. We won't flip flop and change the guidelines back and forth repeatedly either. I feel like I understand what everyone wants better now.

How does that sound? Have I missed anything?

wawanya said:
I think this is the clearest position out of the whole discussion thus far. It simply lays out what's acceptable and explains why the booru focuses on that content. This looks good to implement for new and existing posts.

This makes sense too though. We should still settle on the 100% human yume rule but keep this concern in mind in case it becomes a problem later. Then we can always create a new thread to discuss whether to allow some kemonomimi as long as we blacklist it by default or something.

That said even if we do discuss allowing kemonomimi in some form later I expect we won't let the exceptions and conditions get out of control like you're saying could happen. We won't flip flop and change the guidelines back and forth repeatedly either. I feel like I understand what everyone wants better now.

How does that sound? Have I missed anything?

sounds okay to me so far. agree with the post.

Late update to this. I added the following to the Uploading Guidelines page. We can change the wording if needed.
Also I deleted the posts mentioned in this thread. To retain their context here I linked their original sources in my posts so it's still possible to see what exactly we were discussing. If you need me to increase your upload limit to offset the penalty that e6's software gives due to deleted posts Anonymous let me know and I can fix that for you.

Human appearance

• The female humans who are the focus of posts must be completely human
• Humans with kemonomimi or other animal features such as ears, tails. fur, muzzle faces etc do not fit our theme
• The reason for this is that yumes should always be able to insert themselves into the human characters. Characters with kemonomimi or animal bodies and qualities do not always appeal to this audience so this rule is to keep the focus on pure humans. You can read more about this discussion in topic #7.